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| mx68u
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| Posted:Mar 11 2003, 11:33 PM |
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Hey Guys,
Well i think its time to start planning my fuel system upgrade as im keen to finally finalise the performance modifications to my car (yeah right).
What im after? well basically enough fuel to support a minimum of 300hp @ the flywheel.
So first things first, what is the current fuel system capable of supporting? As far as the Injectors are concerned they are capable of 360cc @ 15 ohm's which equates to a support figure of around about 288hp ([360/5] * 4) @ 100% duty cycle. Now that sounds pretty good to me so with a Fuel Pressure regulator we should be able to see an increase of 20% which bumps up that figure to about 346hp @ 100% duty cycle.
Of course no-one wants to run 100% duty cycle so if we bring that down to a more reliable 85% your looking at around 295hp with the FPR and without approx 245hp with the stock injectors.
So it looks like i may be able to get away with the stock injectors after all, there is also the possiblitiy of high-flowing the stockers which should see a substantial gain as well.
ok so what about after market options? heres a few that i have came across which according to some will fit in our cars without any modifications to the fuel rail.
440cc Toyota Supra, 7MGTE (88-91 or something)
460cc 13b series 4/5 RX7
550cc 13b Turbo series 4/5 RX7
ok just doing some quick calculations we can get the hp support figures...
cc / 100% DC / 85% DC
440cc = 352hp / 300hp
460cc = 368hp / 312hp
550cc = 440hp / 374hp
Ok looks like for my application the 440cc or 460cc will be ideal as it will get me to the 300hp mark without a FPR which leaves me with a little more room to extract a few more hp further down the track. One thing worth noting though is that it seems the Supra 440cc injectors are low impedance?, according to the next century performance book by julian edgar and the article here from autospeed. So it seems as though they are out of the question without a resistor pack, so it looks like 460cc's are probably my best option?
However it also seems that the stock injectors aren't really that small after all, so for those of you who are just looking for up to 250 to 280hp it looks like you guys just need a fuel pump and RRFPR or FPR and ecu modifications.
Let me know what you guys think about this, any input would be great, im also thinking of getting a bosch 984 600hp fuel pump so i can run those high pressures with a FPR sometime down the track without compromising reliability.
I would like to hear from any1 who has upgrade injectors as well, what cc and how its effect low end response and normal driving conditions.
Cheers,
Frank |
| mx68u
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 Posted:Mar 11 2003, 11:37 PM |
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also here is a pic of the 460cc 13b non turbo injectors 
Attached Image
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| redneckmx6
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 09:02 AM |
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OK here I go......
Are you sure the stockers are 360cc?
I have a foggy memory but I believe they are 330cc. You could be very well correct.
Never exceed 85% duty cycle on injectors. (according to my SDS screen I hit 100%) they sometimes will lock.
That was with the stockers.
I now have 650cc injectors and never exceed 65% on 9 psi, don't remember right now what it is at 12psi (see I left myself room for more when the hp bug bites again  )
I also have the Walbro 255 lph fuel pump.....this sucker is nasty......you need gas it GIVES it to you
I would strongly suggest aftermarket FPR.(though I do know someone using a stocker that is pushing a LOT of hp)...over a rising rate FMU (unless you use both don't question what I said about using both we have one now running both.....but this is also on a car that the injectors are too small.....see without upgrading injectors, he still got it to work with boost)
I have a Vortech FMU and had to strongly shorten the injector pulse as the boost went up. There was just too much pressure and the injectors wouldn't work right and the car bogged heavy.....actually fell on it's face.
But here is your problem........you are trying to get 300hp from (sorry don't mean to offend anyone here) crappy head design, single cam, truck motor.
I am sure you know who Adam Turbo is on MX6.com
He has all kinds of work done to his car....extensive under hood also, not just the outside. He just built another motor....but his old one had alot of work. I believe he was using the stock injectors, chipped ecu, and a hybrid turbo and dynoed...211.2hp and 300ft/lbs. Also his exhaust work, intercooler.....the list goes on and on.
Not bad by any means...................................so.............................................
run the 440cc'ers and chip for those........I have contact with a person (not Jay ) that has all the programming for them to run very well in the MX6........just adding final touches now. I am sure you could have someone by you program your ecu.
And that should put you right at the 300 mark.
But my best suggestion for you is to go with something like the
SDS system I have......it would really be your best bet
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Yes it's a turbocharged FE3, (soon on the bottle) and NO you can't drive it
WARNING: Does not play well with others (it seems others have a problem with losing)
My Beast
| QUOTE | posted by 90tx5
cheers
you r like the car god on this forum |
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 10:47 AM |
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cheers for the input red!
| QUOTE | Are you sure the stockers are 360cc?
I have a foggy memory but I believe they are 330cc. You could be very well correct. |
pretty sure, im lead to believe thats whats stated in the factory manual, however thats at 100% duty cycle so really i suppose 330cc would be a more reasonable figure to work with
650cc injectors are way to big for me, i wont be going for a complete management system as i've already forked out for a chiptorque chip. These things are much better than the adamTurbo/boostedfe3 ones, they give the tuner control of ignition and fuel maps which are adjusted by a decent tuner in real time to suit the specific modz and conditions of the car. 650cc wont allow the adjustability with a chip to supply accurate fuel levels at low rpm/load as its such a large jump in injector size, this is the same reason why im deciding on whether or not to get the 550cc ones, will they be an overkill for 300hp?
| QUOTE | | But here is your problem........you are trying to get 300hp from (sorry don't mean to offend anyone here) crappy head design, single cam, truck motor. |
no offence taken, its a very valid description of the f2t's head unfortunately 
Have you by any chance witnessed some injector upgrades on other cars or maybe on your own? do you feel that the calculations above accurately describe the capability of the injectors mentioned or in practice have you noticed that generally injectors tend to flow much less, like say 115-135kw @ wheels with 440cc injectors @ 80% duty cycle... such a situation suggested that the injectors cant supply the horsepower figures mentioned above.
as far as the pump's concerned thats definately a contender, it all depends on the price really, i can get some bosch 600hp ones for AU$280 so they are looking like a stable option at this stage
This post has been edited by mx68u on Mar 12 2003, 10:50 AM |
| redneckmx6
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 11:33 AM |
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as for witnessing injector upgrades on cars......everyone around me has 2nd gens.
But I have made some road trips and found the supra 440's on a first gen that was running a big FMIC, roughly a T3 turbo, 2 1/4" piping (for turbo) and a custom exhaust.......around 17psi
I can get you details on that car and the setup...not right now (sorry) may take a day...
That chiptorque chip sounds promising....I like that.
as for your calculations......my opinion.....I believe that you are very accurate but maybe a little low (see end of post), but also take into effect you need the pump and pressure behind them
Also keep in mind intake charge temp, timing, and other things....example: I am still using the stock ic for my car..running 12psi because no matter how much timing I try to pull out of the car to run more boost I can't make up for the ineffientcy of the stock ic.
Also I have seen a supercharged V6 with 210----foggy again-----240 cc injectors with a FMU and good pump push roughly 300hp
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Yes it's a turbocharged FE3, (soon on the bottle) and NO you can't drive it
WARNING: Does not play well with others (it seems others have a problem with losing)
My Beast
| QUOTE | posted by 90tx5
cheers
you r like the car god on this forum |
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 03:35 PM |
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Also the good thing about running the 3rd gen supra 440's is that all you have to do is splice them in .............no resistor needed
--------------------
Yes it's a turbocharged FE3, (soon on the bottle) and NO you can't drive it
WARNING: Does not play well with others (it seems others have a problem with losing)
My Beast
| QUOTE | posted by 90tx5
cheers
you r like the car god on this forum |
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| 90tx5
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 05:02 PM |
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i have heard that the stnd injectors are 330cc, and r only good for about 140kw atw. and that a set of series 5 turbo injectors (550cc) are the way to go, and a 300 zx fuel pump is another upgrade.
this is what i will be doing to my car a little down the track, and should brove to be good
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the f2t is a powerfull engine, but only to those who can handle the power! |
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| Posted:Mar 12 2003, 08:06 PM |
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6 of those 240cc injectors are capable of flywheel 288hp according to the equations used above and even more with a FPR so thats definately reassuring to hear! thanks!
as fars as the 440cc's on a t3 with 17psi any rough idea on the duty cycle would be great, thanks!
| QUOTE | | as for your calculations......my opinion.....I believe that you are very accurate but maybe a little low (see end of post), but also take into effect you need the pump and pressure behind them |
i completely agree, basically im after injector capabilities @ 85% duty cycle for comparitive reasons, fuel pressure will be manipulated as well as a high quality brand new pump installed to ensure that everything run's fine on the dyno
| QUOTE | | Also keep in mind intake charge temp, timing, and other things....example: I am still using the stock ic for my car..running 12psi because no matter how much timing I try to pull out of the car to run more boost I can't make up for the ineffientcy of the stock ic. |
the stock intercooler is the best by any stretch of the imagination but i do believe they are pretty good factory units. I was running a much less efficient turbo (RHB5 stocker) at 14psi, never actually got intake temp figures which i do regret but according to the tuners it was "safe". Based on that i pressume a larger more efficient turbo like the vf22 i have on there now would be able to pump out that 14psi at a much more safer level?
| QUOTE | | Also the good thing about running the 3rd gen supra 440's is that all you have to do is splice them in .............no resistor needed |
this is my problem, according to some very good and well known books/articles this is not the case, i have found that the 440cc injectors are actually low impedance and since we need high we will need a resistor pack to run them. Then again on the other side of the coin we have all these ppl on mx6.com with their 440cc injectors and chips to accommodate them, my conclusion at this stage is that the supras had both varieties in different year models, the only problem is no-one has been able to verify this yet.
| QUOTE | have heard that the stnd injectors are 330cc, and r only good for about 140kw atw. and that a set of series 5 turbo injectors (550cc) are the way to go, and a 300 zx fuel pump is another upgrade.
this is what i will be doing to my car a little down the track, and should brove to be good |
i would think twice about installing a second hand fuel pump when you can get a brand new more powerful one for a little more dollars, pumps are known to loss power with age so take that into account before you fork out the cash 
injectors are 360cc according to the manual.. that is however at 100% duty cycle |
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| Posted:Mar 13 2003, 05:59 AM |
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| Im still runnin the stock injectors and ecu on my f2t and on 10psi ive made 150kw at the wheels i also ran the car on 14psi and ran 108mph and the best time was done on 12psi which was 13.9 @ 103mph.On the dyno we tryed 15psi and we got 171kw+ but the tuner backed off as he didnt wanna take the risk.Other fuel mmods are a bosh 600hp fuel pump and a bosh fuel reg right now set on 55psi .Its a bitch down low but up top its perfect. |
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| Posted:Mar 13 2003, 06:39 AM |
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to tell you the truth my car doesnt feel no-where close to 150kw's @ wheels with around 10psi on the vf22 unfortunately, but i suppose thats due to the stock internals, im thinking atm its more like 120kws.
With a modded or upgraded ecu and injectors you should see a very worthwhile gain, im surprised you have done that already, its your ticket to low 13's getting boost to come on earlier, that and some 225's at the front
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| redneckmx6
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| Posted:Mar 13 2003, 10:14 AM |
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| QUOTE (mx68u @ Mar 12 2003, 03:06 AM) |
as fars as the 440cc's on a t3 with 17psi any rough idea on the duty cycle would be great, thanks!
| QUOTE | | Also the good thing about running the 3rd gen supra 440's is that all you have to do is splice them in .............no resistor needed |
this is my problem, according to some very good and well known books/articles this is not the case, i have found that the 440cc injectors are actually low impedance and since we need high we will need a resistor pack to run them. Then again on the other side of the coin we have all these ppl on mx6.com with their 440cc injectors and chips to accommodate them, my conclusion at this stage is that the supras had both varieties in different year models, the only problem is no-one has been able to verify this yet.
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I can try and find out the duty cycle on those for you...not a problem
I will also try to find the year that this particular vehicle got them from.
But he had NO resistors...everything was fine
--------------------
Yes it's a turbocharged FE3, (soon on the bottle) and NO you can't drive it
WARNING: Does not play well with others (it seems others have a problem with losing)
My Beast
| QUOTE | posted by 90tx5
cheers
you r like the car god on this forum |
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